mpr3 - PT 7 over Logic

Audio, MIDI and other software, not including effects or instruments
Jason Hyerstay
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Post by Jason Hyerstay » 20 Nov 2005, 20:23

steve austin wrote:hey mpr3! can you tell me why you prefer PT's over Logic cause i'm interested in that DAW. Which midi programming is easier,and which enviroment do you think is faster and more elegant for all software production and why. thanx! :o
You should start a new thread for this question or I can split your question off to its own thread.

Thanks,

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Post by mpr3 » 20 Nov 2005, 23:31

I think this should be split.
steve austin wrote:hey mpr3! can you tell me why you prefer PT's over Logic cause i'm interested in that DAW. Which midi programming is easier,and which enviroment do you think is faster and more elegant for all software production and why. thanx! :o
Hi Steve. Since I do not do much midi programming these days, I think someone else should chime in about the midi features in PT7 vs Logic. While PT7 did get some serious midi improvements, I have a feeling Logic still reigns king
as a raw midi editor.

I choose to use PT for a number of reasons, most importantly being what it has done for my workflow. I can get results faster than I could with any other DAW i've used. Editing regions, both midi and audio, is quick and easy with the Triple Tool and Fade Points.

Lately, I have been making an effort to not get so caught up 'inside' the DAW software while making music. I have developed a simple workflow with PT that allows me to move into the computer screen, make my changes and then back out of it in a matter of seconds. It is amazing what gazing into nothingness can do for your ears when working with audio. PT grants me this freedom through its simplicity.

Sorry, I couldn't be more precise. Choosing the right DAW is a very subjective thing. I have seen people with a jaw droppingly efficient workflow in Logic. It showed me that there is no perfect DAW for all people.

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Post by quicksand » 21 Nov 2005, 09:46

Logic does still reign king as MIDI editor. However, it all depends on how much MIDI you want to use. ProTools doesn't have anywhere near to an equivilant of the Environment. If you build complex environments for most of your sesssions then ProTools isn't really for you. It doesn't have equivilants of the Hyper or Score Editors.

However, it does have a really cool MIDI editor in the arrange window that, after a couple of sessions, I now really like it. It is basic compared to Logic's Matrix Editor at first glance - but I'm finding really easy to use as well as having as many features as I need for 90% of the sessions that I do.

Instrument tracks are great - before PT7 you had to create a MIDI and an Aux Track just to be able to play a software instrument. A couple of my plugins need updating for them to work in PT7 (BFD RTAS, Trilogy).

The audio engine sounds better and is a lot more functional that Logic (Beat Detective is amazing!). Logic might come with a load of plugins as part of the app but ProTools' plugins (both Digi and 3rd parties) sound great.

I found myself sitting in front of both apps 50-50 over the last 18 months and felt frustrated having to quit and switch app in the middle of a session just to make the most of the other apps better functionality. The only things that I'm missing from Logic at the moment are the Rhodes, Hammond and Sampler. Reason doesn't quite fill the gap for those problems for me - I intend on checking out Kontakt 2, B4 2 and Elektrik Piano. I'm sure that as soon I've got them I'll be booting into Logic only for compatibility and "Export All Tracks as Audio Files" :)

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Post by mpr3 » 21 Nov 2005, 10:13

Ok, I'll add a few more things. First, I do not want this to become a 'which is a better DAW thread', because 'better' is relative to how you work and the kind of work you do (ie: composing with a midi controller, composing with a score, composing with loops, composing with your own recorded audio 'sketches', full blown multi-track recording and editing, stereo mixing, surround mixing, sound design, 2-track audio sweetening, mastering etc etc.).

I am doing mostly multi-track recording from the analog domain and sometimes I use supporting midi tracks (virtual instruments and samplers) to augment the sound recordings. I don't midi program from scratch, but I do use the essential midi editing features to tighten up a midi performance in relation to the analog recordings. In that regard, PT gives me more than I could ask for.

I find the PT Mixer window to be very intuitive. Off the top of my head, here is what I like about it: The signal flow reminds me of an analog console. The track grouping and hide functions are easily accessible on the left, and the hotkeys for them are a no brainer to learn. There is a place to make track comments about performances, recording chains, potential problems, processing rendered to audio, nudge amounts, etc. You can drag and drop plugin and send inserts in a similar manner to OSX's drag and drop (option drag copies). Assigning colors to tracks for easy identification is one click away. The routing options via the sends, track inputs and track outputs are incredibly flexible - all physical I/O and virtual busses are available everywhere. The automation controls are simple to use and are reliable.

The Edit window, where the tracks are displayed, shares many of the same features as the Mixing window. This means less flipping back and forth. The beautiful thing about editing waveform or midi regions in PT, is that with the Triple Tool you can just dive right into the region without needing to dig through menus or access tool changes. Also, there is a focus keyboard mode which enables your left hand to instantly apply various manipulations to the cursor, the selection boundaries, and zoom views with a single key. This is very powerful when making intricate selections and / or fine tuning a region edit.

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Post by quicksand » 21 Nov 2005, 10:57

I agree, this is not a DAW war thread! My only reasons for comparing ProTools to Logic are mainly to use Logic as a point of reference - it was my main DAW for a couple of years. Also, most of the people who use this forum are Logic users, a fair chunk of them are pretty fed up with Logic as is. That said, Logic provides a great bang for money. It is a great tool - however I find that ProTools suites my workflow much better.

The type of use that I make of my DAW that I do sounds failry to mpr3s. I also write electronic music that up until now I used Logic exclusively for.

mpr3s comments are pretty bang on for what ProTools is great at.

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Post by dantyrant » 21 Nov 2005, 15:34

It's worth pointing out that if you're doing serious music *creation* than PT LE is a limiting platform, because it limits you to 32 mono voices at once. For electronic music, this is prohibitively small (for example, having 4 stereo aux sends eats up 1/4 of your voices).

On the other hand, for working with audio directly, PT blows Logic out of the water(at least, for now).

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Post by Kubi » 21 Nov 2005, 17:56

Ahem, for very powerful (dare I say, somewhat Pro-Tools style) audio editing while still being able to use MIDI full-bore, and with probably unrivaled control over time, tempo and meter, may I humbly suggest Digital Performer v4.61 by a small and still privately owned company in Massachusetts by the odd name of Mark of the Unicorn? Stable, fast, intuitive, and the sound-quality compared to other native systems is second to none.

You do have choices beyond Country or Western, you know...
Kubi

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Post by mpr3 » 21 Nov 2005, 18:33

Kubi wrote:You do have choices beyond Country or Western, you know...
:)

Digital Performer holds a special place in my heart as it was the first DAW I used under Mac OS 7 (Performer back then?). Compared to PT, DP feels more like a true digital composing environment. The multi-track audio side of DP is very similar to PT, but it is the midi tools and compositional aids that set it apart from PT.

From the PT side of things, I can now look back to DP (which I still use on occasion to play old sessions) as being somewhat bloated. But that judgement is definitely derived from the way I work right now.

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Post by michael » 21 Nov 2005, 19:32

Yeah it's odd that people compare logic and PT to begin with, considering that of all the DAWs for OSX Logic is least like PT. DP and SX are both capable of more elegant destructive edits than Logic which is mainly a MIDI and recording environment. Most action took in the Arrange page are non destructive edits, and don't have the level of precision that PT or the others offer. This means relative project sizes in Logic are smaller, less audio clips of a single file, ( first thing I noticed when switching from DP), and the audio editing features in general are less intuitive. For instance in order to do something as seemingly simple as record a soft synth to a track, you have to record the MIDI, select the section you want to record, bounce, then take the bounced file from the audio window into a new audio track in Logic. If you then want to add FX, you have to bounce again, then remove your original file, replace with teh bounced version with FX...... DP at least, and I'm pretty sure the others as well all do this with far less hassle. In Live 5 and DP you simply point the audio instrument track at an audio track and record. I bet it's similar in PT and SX.

Don't get me wrong, I love Logic, I haven't been able to get my copy of DP upgraded, and it's working well as a AU farm for Live 5 on my powerbook, but I understand why people choose PT HD, DP, SX etc.
DP7, Live 8 Suite

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Post by Jus10 » 21 Nov 2005, 22:26

michael wrote: For instance in order to do something as seemingly simple as record a soft synth to a track, you have to record the MIDI, select the section you want to record, bounce, then take the bounced file from the audio window into a new audio track in Logic. If you then want to add FX, you have to bounce again, then remove your original file, replace with teh bounced version with FX...... DP at least, and I'm pretty sure the others as well all do this with far less hassle.
Yeah, I'm using DP at my school (I'm not sure which version off the top of my head) and Logic 7 at home, both have their ups and downs. So there's no way to record softsynths straight to an audio track in Logic? That kinda sucks, I've been trying to figure this out for a while. On the other hand, bouncing a region, opening the audio window and dragging it onto a track isn't really that many more steps. I can't decide whether I like automation better in DP or Logic at this point. I want some peanut butter in my chocolate, know what I mean?

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Post by michael » 21 Nov 2005, 23:12

Jus10 wrote:Yeah, I'm using DP at my school (I'm not sure which version off the top of my head) and Logic 7 at home, both have their ups and downs. So there's no way to record softsynths straight to an audio track in Logic? That kinda sucks, I've been trying to figure this out for a while. On the other hand, bouncing a region, opening the audio window and dragging it onto a track isn't really that many more steps. I can't decide whether I like automation better in DP or Logic at this point. I want some peanut butter in my chocolate, know what I mean?
Yeah, I'm all about getting multiple DAWs! :shock:I really want to upgrade the DP license I have, but I need a new sound card, monitor amp blew up, headphones died...... :evil:

Logic is my favorite workflow in many ways, but the lack of bussing is lame IMO. Screensets and CPU consumption wise, Logic is king though. Everything ends up in Live eventually for me, so whatever I start on should be something that makes audio clips quickly and efficiently, and has bad ass MIDI, DP is better suited for that than Logic. :wink:
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Post by kenn.michael » 22 Nov 2005, 00:54

Jus10 wrote:So there's no way to record softsynths straight to an audio track in Logic? That kinda sucks, I've been trying to figure this out for a while.
Download 'Soundflower' and setup an 'Aggregate' device in Tiger to use your main interface and Soundflower as a second interface with 16 channels of I/O... Now, in Logic, you can use the Soundflower I/O as a virtual loop through that will allow you to record the output of any track/bus to the input of another audio track. Works great!

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Post by bitcrash » 22 Nov 2005, 07:47

Zombie Jesus? And he's here for dinner? But i have nothing prepared ...!

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Post by kenn.michael » 22 Nov 2005, 10:38

ahh thanks bitcrash! i was feeling a bit lazy. :D

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Post by Simon666 » 22 Nov 2005, 14:00

michael wrote:For instance in order to do something as seemingly simple as record a soft synth to a track, you have to record the MIDI, select the section you want to record, bounce, then take the bounced file from the audio window into a new audio track in Logic. If you then want to add FX, you have to bounce again, then remove your original file, replace with teh bounced version with FX
Wow, it really is about what's important to your workstyle, isn't it? To me - PT user, lots of audio work - the above sounds like a total nightmare.

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