Logic Rages Against The Machine

avvie · Post by **avvie** » 19 Oct 2005, 19:45

Hi folks, just found your forum...new to computer recording. Timemist says I should enter this issue in this forum.
Here's my dilemma:

I have a Roland drum machine, and I love it. It has the sounds I want to use.

I recently made the move to Mac, and I'm trying to figure out how to use Logic Express.

I managed to get Logic to record the MIDI from my drum machine. What I can't do is get it to play my machine with this info.

I do not want to use the built-in sounds of Logic and Garageband, yet the program insists on playing it's own drums instead of mine.

I cannot find how to reverse the data path. Can any of you point me in the right direction? or maybe you can link a thread that explains this? There's a LOT of threads here, and I'd like to find out before June 2007.

One thing that i've found so far: this is a powerful program, with thousands of applications. Unfortunately, i can't find the directions on any of it.

Thanks!
Avvie

oink · Post by **oink** » 20 Oct 2005, 00:03

You may be using the Trial version.
You can find the manual for Express in the manuals section of Support on the Apple website.
What you need to do is use a MIDI track, and have the track instrument assigned to the MIDI port which goes to the Drum Machine.

You will find more about this in the logic Express manual, and the getting Started guide, when you get them.

avvie · Post by **avvie** » 20 Oct 2005, 17:01

It's not the trial version.
I checked pages 472-473 "MIDI settings", and unless I can't read the jargon, my situation is not presented there. I also have the Logic Pro/Logic Express training manual, and I see nothing that helps there, either.
I formerly used Cubase on PC (versions VST 4.1 and SE). I had no problem at all performing this procedure then. I feel sure that LE should do it as well.

I have asked the top Logic Pro Audio consultant in Nashville (a close friend of mine), and he's simply never been asked this question or seen this scenario in all of his training. the best he can offer is "I don't see why not."

So I'm here. I figured that surely someone here uses drum sounds other than live drums, loop programs and DFH/BFD-type sequencers.

But I see what you are saying, and that makes sense . I assume that you are referring to an "Instrument" track. The only options I've found there are Logic instruments. This assignment you mention...is that info found encrypted on page 103 ("MIDI Channel and Port Connection")? I'll give that a try.

Thanks, Oink!

cheeky b · Post by **cheeky b** » 20 Oct 2005, 18:00

Have you used the set up assistant! This really should be easy.

But if you haven't set up your midi environment you won't be able to assign anything to it. Having done that.

What midi channel is the Roland set to receive?

At the left hand side, click and hold on a track name and a list of available midi channels and instruments should appear.

Open a midi track - not instrument - that corresponds to the midi channel of the Roland on the same port if you have a multi port midi interface. Copy or move the midi data you recorded to that track and it should play back.

macmidi21 · Post by **macmidi21** » 20 Oct 2005, 18:07

it's been awhile since I've used external synths.

But I recall it was simple - just hit the Sync funtion and make sure you trigger from an External source instead of the Internal Logic.

'Sync' is the Clock-looking icon on the transport bar.

if that's not it, you may wanna do a search in the manual under 'Sync' or 'External'

recumbent · Post by **recumbent** » 20 Oct 2005, 18:09

1. In the environment go to the instrument layer
2. Create a new instrument
3. Set the channel to the channel (and port) of your drum machine
4. Add the new instrument as a track into the arrange page
5. Move your MIDI data to the new track.

If that doesn't work something is screwed up - like MIDI cable or drivers etc.

avvie · Post by **avvie** » 20 Oct 2005, 19:07

I got it figured out, and you are all only partially correct.

My friend and I worked it out over the phone, and here's where I went wrong:

I learned a while back that drums are always on MIDI channel 10. So, I put everything on MIDI channel 10, right?
Wrong.

Logic's MIDI channel 10 is reserved for multi-timbral instruments. Any time a drum machine is used, it jumps to channel 10 ONLY ON THE MAPPED DRUMS TRACK.

It is from this track only that you can control an external drum machine. The Logic matrix editor on this track will also control sound parameters of the machine...volume, velocity, etc...and will still humanise the playback.

THAT is what I was trying to do. It was as simple as just not knowing what the "drums mapped" track was designed for. This is because all the instructions refer only to synthesizers. And I don't like synths. So far, anyway.

Thanks for all your efforts, though. And thanks to an old poster here named jamester to referring me to this site. I'm sure I'll be checking in with more inane questions as the time goes by.

oink · Post by **oink** » 20 Oct 2005, 23:12

avvie wrote:Logic's MIDI channel 10 is reserved for multi-timbral instruments. Any time a drum machine is used, it jumps to channel 10 ONLY ON THE MAPPED DRUMS TRACK.

What do you mean by 'it jumps to cha 10' ? What jumps ?

Maybe your issue was that the 'prg' checkbox wasn't checked on the cha 10 sub-channel, but it's not true that you can only control drum machines from the mapped instrument object. And it's not true that cha 10 is reserved for multi-timbral instruments.

Or, it could be you don't have the mapped drum instrument set to cha 10. i.e. that the DM is receiving on a different channel (maybe cha 1)

Like someone posted before, create a new Instrument object in the Environment, drag it into the tracklist, set it's Out Port to the DM port, set it's MIDI channel to cha 10 (or whatever cha the DM is receiving on) and check the 'prg' checkbox.
Now if the DM doesn't respond to the standard bank messages, you will need to define custom bank messages for that instrument in the environment. (the DM probably doesn't have banks at all, though)

BTW, I don't know why you only mentioned that you checked the MIDI settings in Song Settings section of the manual ? I have a feeling you are only picking your way around without having read the Getting Started guide or having done the tutorial.
If that is what you are doing, you're making a big mistake and will waste a lot of time for yourself, and others.

avvie · Post by **avvie** » 21 Oct 2005, 12:17

Yes, i should probably be more specific than to use the non-technical term "jump" here.

No, I haven't read the manual from start to finish. I wish i could buy it in book form. Printing it out is an enormous undertaking as well.

I have done a lot of the reading, and it's a lot to absorb at one time. A lot of it involves processes that I will not be using for quite some time, if ever. If I did, I'd be purchasing the full Logic Pro. Everything else I've had to use has been no problem, other than trying to remember where the specific commands are. As I said, it's a lot to absorb.

As for the process that you mentioned above, all I can say is that what I posted is what worked for me. The other MIDI instrument tracks played internal sounds, and the Drums Mapped track played the machine. I don't remember exactly what the source was, but previous research told me that General Midi always used track 10 for drums. MIDI Instrument track 10 in Logic Express did not work. Drums Mapped in Logic Express did, and was by default set to MIDI Channel 10. From this I would postulate that if MI Track 10 were being used for a multi-timbral instrument, then both Drums Mapped and the drum machine would have to be manually set to a different channel. When MItrack 10 was NOT being used for a multi-timbral instrument, it appears that Drums Mapped remains in MIDI Channel 10 by default.....this is what I meant by "jumped to channel 10".
No, I don't know if it was definately designed that way, and I don't know the other methods to do it. But what I posted worked, solved my problem, and allowed me to get on with my life because a drum machine is the only MIDI instrument that I use. As time goes on, perhaps I will find a need to use the method that you mentioned, or may just wish to experiment further with MIDI capabilities. For those reasons, I am keeping this article bookmarked.

Again, thanks for your help and input!
Now, back to your regularly sheduled thread....

jb · Post by jb » 22 Oct 2005, 23:16

avvie wrote: I have asked the top Logic Pro Audio consultant in Nashville (a close friend of mine)...

Being a Nashville resident myself, as well as a Logic user, I'm curious.. who is billing himself as "the top Logic Pro Audio consultant in Nashville" these days?

Seriously, I'm glad you got your issue solved. Welcome to the community @ OSXAudio, and to Logic.

avvie · Post by **avvie** » 23 Oct 2005, 07:49

hehehe...

I'm referring to Brian Parnell, current manager of MacAuthority.

Until his recent promotion, he was the Logic pro specialist there. AFAIK, that store was the top/only Mac HQ in that area. I certainly didn't find any others while I was there, and there are none at all here...only a few salesmen at a couple of stores.
He also represented at various NAMM shows across the country, and headed up training classes. He knows the program.

Don't get me wrong here...he does NOT claim to be an audio engineer. he accepts that as an entirely seperate art form (as do I).

Before I get dogpiled, let me point out that one of the shortcomings of user forums is that you have to get your point out as quickly and succinctly as possible, as nobody wants to either read or write an epic treatise on a given subject. This is probably why Oink seems to find my posts so irritating.
So for all practical purposes here, Brian is IMO "the top Logic pro Audio consultant in Nashville". And if you see him, tell him that you have met "the greatest bass player in greensboro, NC!"

jb · Post by jb » 23 Oct 2005, 10:37

Cool.. I was just curious. So it was your term, and not his then?

Greensboro, eh? I lived in Greensboro for three years when I was a little kid.. a long long time ago. I can even remember our address.. 809 W. Windover (or Wendover?). I went to 1st and 2nd grade at Brooks Elementary. Nice to meet you.

Cheers.
jb

oink · Post by **oink** » 23 Oct 2005, 18:42

avvie wrote:Before I get dogpiled, let me point out that one of the shortcomings of user forums is that you have to get your point out as quickly and succinctly as possible, as nobody wants to either read or write an epic treatise on a given subject. This is probably why Oink seems to find my posts so irritating

It's not that I found the post irritating, it's just that I like to correct inaccuracies before they get out of hand.
For every person that posts on here, there are probably another dozen or so who scour the forums for info. If someone states something as fact regarding how a particular app operates, then, if I know it not to be so, I'll correct the misinformation.

Regarding General MIDI (GM): Yes, if you are dealing with GM songs or a strictly GM sound source, convention has it that cha10 is for drums. But most of what we do is outside the GM domain, and there is nothing that restricts cha 10 to drums in the broad MIDI standard.

oink · Post by **oink** » 23 Oct 2005, 19:33

avvie wrote: As for the process that you mentioned above, all I can say is that what I posted is what worked for me.

Yes, but until you figure out the true reason it worked for you, you will run into problems again. The reason you thought it worked for you was not the true reason.

avvie wrote: The other MIDI instrument tracks played internal sounds, and the Drums Mapped track played the machine.

Which 'internal sounds' ? Do you mean the QuickTime Synth ?
If that is the case, then the Multi Instrument must have been cabled to the internal Quicktime object. If the Multi was assigned to the Drum machine MIDI port, and not cabled to something else, then the only thing which would play from that Multi's sub-channels is the Drum Machine.

avvie wrote: I don't remember exactly what the source was, but previous research told me that General Midi always used track 10 for drums. MIDI Instrument track 10 in Logic Express did not work. Drums Mapped in Logic Express did, and was by default set to MIDI Channel 10. From this I would postulate that if MI Track 10 were being used for a multi-timbral instrument, then both Drums Mapped and the drum machine would have to be manually set to a different channel. When MItrack 10 was NOT being used for a multi-timbral instrument, it appears that Drums Mapped remains in MIDI Channel 10 by default.....this is what I meant by "jumped to channel 10".

The part about cha 10 being assigned to drums in GM songs, and strictly GM devices, is correct, but the rest of the reasoning is way off base.

avvie wrote:No, I don't know if it was definately designed that way,

No, it's not designed that way, and it doesn't work that way, which is why i corrected you. (for the benefit of any other 'newbie' who might come across this thread and take your statements as fact, and for your own education so that can look for the real reason what you did worked, so you know next time.

avvie wrote:But what I posted worked, solved my problem, and allowed me to get on with my life because a drum machine is the only MIDI instrument that I use. As time goes on, perhaps I will find a need to use the method that you mentioned, or may just wish to experiment further with MIDI capabilities. For those reasons, I am keeping this article bookmarked.

Well, I'm glad it worked for you, but wouldn't you rather learn something from the experience than have to rely on 'happy accidents' in the future?

BTW, you did write:

avvie wrote:I got it figured out, and you are all only partially correct.

My friend and I worked it out over the phone,

So when you say the advice you were given was 'only partially correct' you better be sure you speak from some authority. In fact, the answers you got were fully correct, given the limited amount of info they were based on.
This isn't kindergarten here, The sum total of experience the members, who answered your post, have would amount to centuries, against your, and your friend's, few minutes.

Post by **kanker** » 23 Oct 2005, 21:57

avvie wrote:I don't remember exactly what the source was, but previous research told me that General Midi always used track 10 for drums.

Roland developed GM and has, from the beginning, had drums in a multi-timbral setup (or Performance in Roland's terms) assigned to MIDI ch 10. This was infuriating at times because I've owned quite a few Rolands that would not allow you to put a drum kit on any other channel (even outside of a GM Performance), so you were stuck to one drum kit per sequence. Check out a SoundCanvas if you want to see the beginnings of GM. That said, GM does not encompass the entire power of MIDI, and was developed solely as a convenience for people using Standard MIDI Files. GM guarantees that the same type of sound occupies the same patch number on any GM module, making it possible for an SMF to play the correct instruments on any given GM source through program change information at the beginning of each sequence.