Logic X may replace Logic 10

Discussion of Apple Logic Pro, MainStage, GarageBand and all related applications
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jsepeta
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Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by jsepeta » 01 May 2012, 13:16

Such a shame that the last thread on this was locked before I could comment.

I spoke with the lead developer from the Logic team last fall (regarding a serious bug in Lion that lost 2 complete recording sessions, 4 songs in total. We were unable to find the culprit so I reloaded my mobile rig with OSX 10.68. Anyway, he suggested that Apple's not abandoning Logic, but they may wish to streamline the code to make it more modern & efficient. Hans / non-Eric from the Sonic State podcast has found some bugs in Logic 8/9 that were existing in Logic Notator for ATARI, which is evidence that a rewrite may indeed be needed. Additionally, the guy from Apple didn't seem that impressed by my plea to keep the Environment - the one feature of Logic which distinguishes it from all other DAWs and gives it great power when working with external MIDI devices (it happens to be a feature I do not use, but I bet some artists find it important). If Apple's changes to Final Cut Pro X are a signal, Apple may indeed be hellbent on removing pro features to make their products more consumer-accessible - which is a shame given how poorly Garageband performs compared to Logic on the very same hardware. Since Mac sales make up an ever-decreasing slice of Apple's pie, It's perfectly rational for those of us who rely on Logic to ask Apple the hard questions, and to push them to keep a professional product which hasn't been dumbed-down. We may be heading towards a post-pc world, but we're sure as hell not there yet. Which is why all musicians who use Logic should voice our concerns to Apple now, since they idiotically don't involve their customers in their decision-making process ahead of time. Looking at the bad will Apple sowed with professional video editors (removing important features like Multi-camera support from Final Cut Pro), I'm not sure we can count on Apple to do the right thing without first showing them how important it is to us that Logic not lose ground to Cubase & ProTools.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by funkyappledog » 01 May 2012, 20:51

Valid points i guess,it sure does freak me out though.
What happens to people who are Logic Specialists just
Move on,Ouch much easier said then done.

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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by jsepeta » 01 May 2012, 23:49

I've seen other MIDI programs go the way of the dodo. Opcode Vision, Passport, Master Tracks Pro, Alchemy, Koblo, Bitheadz Unity. I can understand if the software isn't popular, or if the computer hardware requires different code (Macos9-OSX, powerpc-intel) but to willfully eliminate a product for pros because you want to reach a larger number of consumers strikes me as being almost malevolently selfish. sure, if logic were to go away as we know it, I could work in cubase or protools or ardour or reaper or sonar or digital performer, but thing is, there's no REASON for Apple to be jerks. If you want to make a consumer product, go for it; just don't alienate the creative pros who got you where you are today. i have the distinct feeling that tim cook doesn't understand or perhaps underestimates the value of being friends with the cool kids. once apple loses that cachet, then they can't charge $700 for an iphone to AT&T.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by G » 02 May 2012, 00:01

jsepeta wrote:Such a shame that the last thread on this was locked before I could comment.
That thread was troll bait and deserved to be locked. This is 180° different. Please carry on. :D
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by jsepeta » 02 May 2012, 11:02

As for that last list of abandonware, it wasn't until the past couple of years that we had the tools to do with EXS24 what Alchemy did for a large list of hardware samplers as far as sample management and data conversion. I guess BIAS Peak has/had the ability to transfer samples over SCSI but if we had to work with hardware samplers now we'd be kind of screwed without Alchemy. But it's a bit more fun with faster computers and Redmatica's suite of tools.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_ar ... chemy.html
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by WaveTable » 02 May 2012, 14:06

Well, for what it is worth I'm currently working on my first track entirely in Ableton Live. I've used Live a bit for a couple of years, but only for remixes, or playing with ideas. I think that Live has about 1/3 of the functionality of Logic, consequently it eliminates a certain number of distractions that let's say can get in the way of getting the job done. One of the highlights is that you can save musical ideas as Clips, a combination of the musical phrase and the instrument it was created on.

I sold all my midi devices and don't regret it! I used to use Logic's environment a lot, now almost never.

I have to say one thing about what people refer to as "legacy code". To me legacy code is likely to be good and very efficient, why, well if it wasn't it would probably have been replaced by now. If code is designed well and works well then it doesn't need to be re-written. Most of the problems with Logic are to do with the signal routing, obviously changing that is a huge amount of work in terms of rewriting the application.

There seems to be pretty good competition in the DAW market, quite unlike say image editing where Photoshop is the only game in town. This seem to me to be the great thing about audio software. If Logic really was abandoned I'm not sure it would really matter, there are plenty of other options. However, I really don't think that this is remotely likely.

Given that Apple's iPhone sales accounted for 61% of their revenue in the last quarter I would have though that any product where they have a high margin, which is probably all of them, that has nothing to do with iOS is very welcome. Diversification is healthy, over reliance on a single product potentially disastrous in the long run. Mac sales are growing fast, and likely to continue to grow.

This Post PC world business is pure BS. Whilst it is true that most PC users don't need a PC for what they do; internet browsing, email... There are many millions of users doing video editing, music production, 3D graphics, image editing, scientific simulations that do need PCs or Macs that deliver high CPU and in some cases GPU performance. One size really doesn't fit all. If you touch type then a QWERTY keyboard is a far more efficient way of getting text into a computer than a touch screen. Touch screens however have huge potential for creating control surfaces. It's all about having the right tool for the job and trying to avoid the blinkered approach.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by michael » 05 May 2012, 13:10

One little piece of evidence is telling though, Apple has not updated the Mac Pro Line since 2010.
It has been a while since Intel upgraded their Xeon line of cpu's but they did months ago now, and Apple still has yet to release a Mac Pro with those new faster and larger clusters of chips.

Jobs and and Tim Cook both have mentioned how the Tower is destined for "truck" status, as in it's going to be a small percentage of the market etc. but it seems that they currently aren't even interested in the truck market. Intel has ten core 2.26 chips now VS the Mac Pro with six core 2.66 chips in it. They also have a comparable 8 core 2.66 chip that's significantly cheaper than the 10 core. Basically it's weird they aren't acting on it, unless they do decide to drop the Mac Pro line. :cry:
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by 27 » 05 May 2012, 23:40

there's always DP :)

logic needs some streamlining.. it needs easier midi mapping.. some things that can be done in live in about 10 seconds require a patching session in the environment window. that has to change. logic needs to be made modern and get through all the red tape for certain tasks. there's just no reason for those things not to be fixed.

i've used logic since i think 2.x logic discovery i think was my intro to the app. i've always loved but haven't composed a song start to finish in logic for more than a year or so.. things happen in live, in numerology in audiomulch etc and then everything ends up in logic for mixing and maybe adding more to it.. but it's the last place i go for starting a song. i just don't find it inspiring to use for starting projects. it just isn't very interactive to me. but i LOVE it for mixing. i like the plug ins.. i love the way it sounds etc. i think LIVE doesn't sound as good. it's fine for small projects but once you get a bunch of tracks and lot's of plug ins and sends the 2 bus falls apart. imo. perhaps your experience different but despite all the PR from ableton about how it sounds identical etc to other DAWs.. i just don't think it does..

so, i hope logic gets some real love whenever the next update happens. losing the environment wouldn't be the end of the world but i would miss it.

re: the mac pro line.. i think we'll see the mac-super-mini or something... basically a macpro w/o the PCI slots..

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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by azmills » 06 May 2012, 03:13

I also feel that Ableton Live is lacking sound quality. That's too bad because it's so much fun to work with.
I do feel Logic is more complex & more capable than Live & I really don't want the environment to go away.
I still enjoy my hardware.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by michael » 06 May 2012, 10:13

I don't think Live lacks sound quality at all.
I do think Live does some funny things to the sound when it gets near the limits of your computers CPU. Essentially I think there's a slight degradation of quality that happens at 95% CPU before it starts crackling the audio. Other DAWs like DP will freeze the interface elements first and keep the audio running perfectly, and Logic famously just stops the audio completely.
A couple things to keep in mind when using Live:
first the cpu meter in Live is completely useless, it's generally about 15-20% off of what the actual cpu use is in your system, with nothing else running but Live.
Second, Live is the biggest cpu pig of any DAW I've used, it roughly gets to 60% of what DP and Logic can do before it starts crackling the audio.
Because of the above, I wouldn't recommend mixing songs down in Live, sure you can, but it's really easy to use up all your cpu without meaning to in mixdown if you're using heavy duty compressors and tweaking the audio to fit. You would really want a nice 75% cpu buffer in Live to get no issues mixing down in Live, and with Live's already mentioned cpu gluttony that doesn't leave you with very much cpu for plug ins.

Because of that, and because of the fact I want the option to send SysEx messages to hardware synths, I've been writing in DP and using Live rewired when I want it's awesome clip mangling and time/pitch trickery. Once you get over the admittedly deeply painful learning curve DP has a lot of the same composing advantages of Live in terms of arrangement. IE it allows you to use Chunks(blocks etc.) of bridges, breaks, main riff lines... as building blocks and try out different arrangements quickly, and if you want have them all available in the same open set.
Probably derailing the thread a little sorry about that. There are plenty of amazing things about Logic; I certainly hope Apple doesn't dumb it down any further than they already have in terms of the UI, and I hope they improve the core parts without stripping out the Environment, which is a great idea.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by jsepeta » 07 May 2012, 07:28

While the market for softsynths is huge, and I own a ton of free and paid softsynths, I would be very disappointed if Apple changes Logic in a manner that drops ES1, ES2, EVP88, EXS24, etc. I like the quote from (I think it was Chris Randall from Audio Damage) who said that Apple should be forced to put out their softsynths as AU code so they can test their own specs/documentation/implementation of the AU format.

There's good reasons for Apple to develop their own plugin standard -- who wants their company to have to develop products according to another company's spec, which could change at any time (Steinberg VST, MOTU MAS, Avid RTAS)? On the other hand, Apple hasn't been as transparent to third party developers as they could/should be. With the growth of iPad & iPhone instruments, it would be interesting if Logic had a better way to integrate music-making with IOS devices with the BIG TRUCK that we need to handle the computational power required and data throughput needed from multi-gigabyte sample libraries.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by steff3 » 23 May 2012, 21:51

WaveTable wrote:
This Post PC world business is pure BS. Whilst it is true that most PC users don't need a PC for what they do; internet browsing, email... There are many millions of users doing video editing, music production, 3D graphics, image editing, scientific simulations that do need PCs or Macs that deliver high CPU and in some cases GPU performance. One size really doesn't fit all. If you touch type then a QWERTY keyboard is a far more efficient way of getting text into a computer than a touch screen. Touch screens however have huge potential for creating control surfaces. It's all about having the right tool for the job and trying to avoid the blinkered approach.
The kind of media editing millions do (according to you), that level of control they use you can easily achieve and do on your iPhone and iPad today - of course, there is no equivalent to Shake (which was killed by Apple anyways), Final Cut Pro and Digital Performer.
You can use the BlueTooth keyboard with iPhone and iPad - so, this is no argument (although it is a limited experience). And also, the smart-ass-ness of Lion (and wait for mountain lion) is getting me on my nerves when not surfing the internet but trying to get something done creatively.

Apple is moving to consumer - away from pro - I do not like it (without the pros Apple would no longer be here - it were the pros who still bought Macs in the nineties ....).

So, I would not be surprise, if the environment goes away. It would be a shame, but these days it is nothing compared to Live + Max. They had a great idea only on and did not follow and develop it further. And it is definitely too complicated for Garageband updaters and Windows-Switchers ....

best

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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by jsepeta » 23 May 2012, 22:06

throwing a bluetooth keyboard onto an Ipad still doesn't fix the fact that it's a monotasking platform, which won't allow you to use plug-ins. the benefit of a desktop/laptop computer is that the interface can do a lot of stuff simultaneously (record multiple channels of audio & MIDI, coordinate the actions of multiple apps, yadda yadda)

Live is not yet a replacement for ProTools, and no DAW but ProTools can guarantee track count.
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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by Noego » 30 Jul 2012, 14:15

:o
First post. Hello. Found this site while searching for Logic X possibilities.

Don't forget that a lot of people including myself, run an all mic/instrument/line in recording studio. No loops.Loops are cool for those who use them but not my thing and not the artists I record... It's not dinosaur thinking sorry that there are still acoustic artists, or rock and roll that doesn't use loop software. Why learn another software like Live (no offense if you do then it suits you) when you already have a way you are used to working. I have a small SSL console. I have a lot of outboard gear, a lot of microphones, amps etc.... All available today. All in use. I used Cubase for many many years until 4 came and the issues were endless. That's when I jumped to Logic 7. I used Emagic before Cubase actually. I guess I just wanted to add my two cents in that....just because you have chosen to record a certain way, it doesn't mean others have. There are genres that do not use loops ordinarily, and a good sounding live recording in a linear method is still strong today. The day I have to follow the talent around with an IPAD cause it's cool and new, (yes I own one, an IPAD, a Mac Book Pro and about 12 Imacs and 3 Mac pros for my business) is the day I go back to PC and the "rest of the world" of choices.....I think the lack of support for the growth of money has shown it's ugly for Apple and I hope that they support Logic in the sense that all the people who have been giving Mac money over the years deserve. See, it's not just the recording software ....it's also the format, the machines and the people...yes the people who have put them there. Technology is great, just not when it makes the user change who they are. I guess maybe I am an island to think it should be the other way around.

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Re: Logic X may replace Logic 10

Post by audiopost » 23 Oct 2012, 16:37

I heard from a guy who talked to a Logic developer who said that Logic X will eliminate Aux Sends. Apparently it is seen as duplicate functionality and we can just use inserts instead.

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